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Moving to dreamwidth or staying on lj?
keep calm and rock out
rocks_not_dead wrote in t_and_b_anon
(Please note that with some time of waiting in the dreamwidth queue the entire community including all comments and settings can be moved to dreamwidth.)


Poll #1805782 Move to dreamwidth or stay on lj?
This poll is closed.

As for so many other memes recently, it's time for us to decide now, too. Do we want to move the meme over to dreamwidth or stay on lj?

move to dreamwidth
102(58.3%)
stay on lj
73(41.7%)


I'd also like to say, for those who don't know yet that dreamwidth is going invite code free til the end of the year. However, you can also post without having an account here.

The poll will close January 7th.

I'd say move to dreamwidth because the tracking function is now useless to me. I get an inbox full of 'reply to an entry' or 'reply to a comment' which is very frustrating because I used the tracker to see when a particular thread was updated.

That and LJ's customer service sucks hairy donkey balls.

I agree on this. The way I keep track here (because I can't read every single comment) is that I look at the threads that suddenly get many many comments. More often than not if there's a problem that's an indicator. And for me now, too, they all look the same.

I don't really know anything about Dreamwidth or how to use it....So I'm gonna go with LJ cause I'm a big chicken to change. T.T

If it does get sent to Dreamwidth is it going to be similar? OTL

Dreamwidth is very similar to LJ. Its creators were part of LJ before so...

I think the fact that it doesn't have layouts as pretty as LJ's would be its only drawback...

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How about we have the anonmeme on both dreamwidth and LJ, so as not to alienate users completely?

Like, say, the main prompts/fills post will be on dreamwidth, while we keep a second update post on LJ (plus a link to the current meme part) on this? That way when people load the t-and-b-anon page, they can find a link of the current dreamwidth page no problem.

This way, we get the best of two worlds :)

Oh, sure. I'm not even talking about deleting it here. It's just that... lj is fast becoming unusable. And for any meme the missing subject lines are a huge problem. We just really need to make sure that prompting and filling happens on one site and one site only. Because if we ever want to archive again (this is something I'm gonna come back to once the lj mess has been sorted), it would be a bit of a mess having it on two sites.

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I'm very new (just lurking actually) to this fandom, and though I voted 'move to DW', I'd suggest to, perhaps, just do this for provisional reasons? My hope is that, Eljay, might eventually fix the comment problem. And you might lose a lot of the readership by moving away entirely :/


While I'm very new to this community I have been in one that moved to dreamwidth and in the process lost 3/4 of their members. There were a number of reasons, number one being that most people were familiar with LJ and for the most part weren't having any major problems with it. Second...the invite codes for accounts. Someone here commented on keeping both. That may be a wise course of action until you can be sure that the majority will be comfortable enough with dreamwidth to not bail from the community completely.

Edited at 2011-12-25 11:18 pm (UTC)

If my kink meme message box is anything to go by, the new comment system has pretty much stopped the meme to a grinding halt. It doesn't seem like moving to DW will hurt more than it helps.

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I say move to DW. I fortunately have not suffered any migraines from LJ's new comment system (unlike many other users) but I have gotten the occasional headache from it. Since LJ already has plans to completely revamp the site, I'm worried that one day LJ is going to be completely unusable for a lot of people.

i don't mind to adjust with dreamwidth (i have no knowledge about it though)

it's kinda difficult with recent condition to track tnb anon posts, please do what you think is the best, we trust you mods! (okay bunny-trust-syndrome here... lol)

Things Dreamwidth has in its favor aside from subject lines and non-painful comments pages:

Larger character limits on comments. Over here we're limited to 4300 characters per comment. Over there, 16000. So a fic that needs to be posted as three or four comments here? Only one over there. Much less hassle for people who are filling.

Each comment has a link to view the entire thread starting at the original top-level comment. This means if you get an email notification for say part 50 of a fic (not that very many fics would get that high with the larger comments!), you can go to that comment - and then click to view the whole thing starting from the prompt that inspired it.

Comments pages have a link to view=flat. This is a feature not a lot of people seem to know about at LJ, because you have to add it to the URL manually - it gives a chronological list of comments to any post, rather than threaded. This means if you want to see what fills have been posted/updated recently, you can click that link and go to the last page, and see the most recent comments on that entire part of the meme. (And then if it's one that looks interesting but you didn't start reading at the beginning, you can click the previously mentioned link to go back to the very beginning!) This would also be extremely useful for archival purposes, since someone could conceivably check everything that's been posted on the meme at regular intervals, each time working backwards to the last time they archived. (Updaters at the Phoenix Wright kink meme were pretty pleased to discover this, if I recall.)

...Anything else I'm forgetting? I'm pretty sure there's more, but I pretty much live at DW except for a couple of anon memes over here, so I may take a lot of things for granted by now.

DW is designed so that fics can be directly loaded onto kindle and other e-readers, so you can post a multichapter fic in a single entry. I'm not sure how many characters they do allow for a single entry, but one entry I posted was 30,000 words.

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There's a way to reenable subject lines - the mods on f-fa essentially recreated the previous layout, and in their version, subject lines are featured again: http://fail-fandomanon.livejournal.com/25451.html

If you try that, the meme should regain previous functionality.

I saw that method floating around on plurk...

IMO though, LJ's handling of the subject-lines/comment layout change has left a bad taste in my mouth. Their message has been pretty much 'Deal with it'. What else will we be forced to 'deal with' later on?

Limits on comment/entry texts so it'll be more like Facebook? And all with nothing but a warning a week before it suddenly happens?

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Why don't you simply wait for a while? It's obvious they are going to make the necessaries changes after all the feedback they are getting about this new system (unless they are retards).

LJ doesn't always roll back changes after people complain about things. There have been times in the past where they have, true enough, but considering the shift in the dev team and the particularly dense nature of LJ's customer service, I really don't see this one being reversed. The changes have already been coded, and there are so many more that they've already paid people do. It's highly unlikely that they'll simply throw it away.

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I vote that we move and do it as soon as possible. Dreamwidth is allowing people to sign up for free accounts without an invite code until the end of the year. If we wait until the middle of January, we might not have that opportunity anymore. The invite code system is what appears to be deterring people the most from moving. That, and fear that no one else will move with them. If we could all agree to get out of here now, neither of those would be an issue.

I've already imported my personal LJ, and it was really easy to do. For those of you still worried about losing contact with your LJ-only friends, DW has a feature that allows you to automatically crosspost your content to LJ. Besides, as it has been pointed out before, you don't need an account to post anonymously. Are people really that lazy that can't simply update their bookmarks? And the DW post/comment format is essentially the same as what LJ was before the change, so it's not like there's gonna be a bunch of confusing new doodads to adjust to. It'll be the same shit, but with less redonkulous updates.

You do have a point there. Though I think the whole thing for moving comms isn't going to be set up til tomorrow or so? Or so I've heard. I've imported my rp journal and my personal one will soon follow.

I just didn't want to suddenly jump this whole thing on everyone because I was like yeah, it's Christmas, a lot of people probably won't be online. But reading opinions now, and following what I'm seeing all over lj, I might soon have to revise my post. :/

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Have you looked at the new-layout method that was linked to in one of the above comments? I really don't want to move to Dreamwidth; as others have said, there's a chance of it significantly reducing the number of users here, and LJ-only folks who come into the fandom after the move won't be inclined to visit. Changing the layout would fix almost all our problems, if that's a feasible option. As for if the new changes get added to S2...well, we'll deal with that if it happens. But I really think a move to DW would put a major damper on acquiring new posters.

I heard that layout still doesn't help with long threads...

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Move please. LJ clearly doesn't give a fuck about the fandom side and wants to become a new facebook.

For those who are uncomfortable with moving, here's a few links to read up on.

A preview of what LJ will look like in the next year or so. They aren't going to change it back.

How nasty LJ's staff has been to the userbase

How to make Dreamwidth appear to look like LJ

How to get some of your pretty layouts on Dreamwidth


In addition, Dreamwidth suffers no DDoS attacks and has an active staff willing to help out and answer questions as quickly as possible

Oh yes and http://dw-codesharing.dreamwidth.org/

Getting a DW journal, even after the promotion ends is really easy. If you guys still need invite codes, message me I've got plenty to share

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Ah, my only question is what to do about the long fills that are already in progress. If we move, will there be a post specifically for continuing those? If so, will we have to repost them entirely, or just have a link to what's already written and go from there? And if not, do we just continue working on them on LJ, or do we integrate them into the new prompt requests on DW somehow?

The comments to every post can be imported as-is, so that no one has to repost anything or link to other threads or start up fresh with new posts or any of that other confusing BS. If we move, every post, comment, and thread in the community will come with it. You won't have to do anything except wait for it all to transfer to DW.

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Other: not even caring

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Some of us might end up just posting to the dreamwidth side, though :/

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I voted to move because LJ's customer support has been astoundingly poor, and for every time they implement changes that people hate and people don't leave, LJ will feel more and more free to ignore customer feedback. In particular the fact that accessibility is a second priority is very frustrating.

Not sure how closely related this comm is to the main tiger and bunny comm (I know you link to it in the User Info at least), but has anyone talked to the mods there to see if they've any interest in moving the main community to dreamwidth as well? It seems like there might be less fracturing of the fanbase if both of the major communities are on the same site.

I've asked them about it, their response was "We'll keep it in mind".

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I've been watching the poll since it's been put up, and as new votes have trickled in over the past three days, the percentage of people wanting to move has remained exactly the same, and it doesn't seem likely that the percentage will change. A significant number of author anons complained about how much they hate the new comment system (thread four comments up), and some even said that they won't post the remainder of their ongoing fills to the meme unless we move. That's pretty bad, folks. Without someone filling the prompts, this meme has a 100% chance of dying. A two-thirds majority is pretty significant, and even if the 35 people who voted to stay absolutely refuse to participate after we move, there would still be 70 happy people keeping the meme alive. There's also probably a few people who won't care either way that aren't voting at all.

Um... is this good enough for us to announce that we're leaving? At this point, we're probably better off trying to convince the people against moving to follow us over there.

It looks like the LJ-only users are coming out of the woodwork now. D:

I really hope the vote goes DW. I have three ongoing fills right now, and I want to actually be able to finish them.

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Anon author here to ask: Are there any authors who would continue filling if we do NOT move? I was one of the ones who spoke up above basically saying I pretty much definitely will not be able to with this system, but I want to know if there would still be authors posting if we remain here.

I'm also curious what exactly people would plan to do with this system if we stayed. Are there some ideas on how to make things more navigable again?

I'd probably eventually complete my fills, but I'd be more likely to post them non-anon and just comment over here letting the OPs know where the finished fic was, rather than posting my updates as I write them. I've posted two fill updates since the change and it's just not worth the hassle.

Heads up - community imports are up and running over at DW! (http://dw-maintenance.dreamwidth.org/41798.html) For comms with less than 100,000 comments, anyway... and we've got a little under 19,000.

Yeah. And as far as I understood that paid accounts have priority for another two weeks. I did ask and hopefully will get a response. But I think having misunderstood that is wishful thinking. :/

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Move please. I'm not even a DW user (well okay, I created an account a day ago just in case) but anything is better than the new LJ. They (the staff of LJ) don't seem so eager to give subject lines back.

To me it looks like the comment system is back to normal on here? So if that can be done for everyone I don't see why we should change.

I hate dreamwidth, so it would be a pain to change, though I would still read and write and request for the meme if it moved since I love TaiBani more then I hate dreamwidth.

The comment system is back to normal because of a change to an S2 style. LJ has already stated that S2 styles will eventually get the new comment system that we all hate so much, so this is a temporary band-aid, not a permanent solution.

What's to hate about Dreamwidth? Seriously, I don't understand. It's basically exactly like LJ with a few additional features like the expandable cut tags and the longer comment limits.

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Interesting and relevant link - a translated interview with igrick, head of LJ Russia and the guy responsible for the overhaul of the comments page:

http://uwaaaah.dreamwidth.org/288.html

His actions make rather a lot more sense when you understand what he's getting at - they're no less irritating for those who use the site as we (and most of the English-speaking userbase) do, but he makes it very clear that he doesn't understand why anyone would use LJ the way that the English-speaking/American users mostly use it, and therefore isn't catering to them.

A couple noteworthy excerpts:

LJ has found its appropriate use in Russia, although it was not planned to be this way from the start. Brad Fitzpatrick (starter of Livejournal) used LJ as a blog for himself and his friends, he used it, as an example, in order to not call everyone and not speak of the fact that he left on vacation. since then in america, Livejournal is used as its own closed area. 50% of journal entries, without taking into account communities, are "friends only" or "locked" to yourself, your friends, or groups of friends so that only they can read your words.

Much like Facebook, LJ is seemingly now run by someone who doesn't understand why people would want to keep their writings private or restricted. (As mentioned in the comments, he likely means "appropriate use" in the sense of "appropriate for Russian users" as opposed to appropriate use of the site in general. Either way, that's the kind of use he's familiar with and understands.)

[...]the cases that are holding up the service and the data, which have already accumulated, require hand-care. You need to take into account that we don't want to maintain 100% of the current functionality of LiveJournal, we want to take away some things and add others.

Which seems to be a pretty straightforward way of saying that subject lines (among other things they choose to get rid of) are definitely not coming back. Now I'm wondering what else they're going to get rid of?

[Regarding the migration of non-Cyrillic users] When you have an acient service which is full of advertising and there are no popular users who can keep the rest of the audience on the site, because they have long since gone to standalone, and the only remaining users are those who are part of communities, which stay there.

He seems to think that communities are the only reason the English-speaking userbase uses LJ since widely-read English-language blogs tend to have their own domain rather than using LJ - when the truth is, all kinds of bloggers used to use it for individual blogs, widely-read or not, and now communities are the only reason most of the userbase is staying, because SUP's policies screwed us over too much to stay for any other reason. (Also, with some of the stuff he says elsewhere in this article, I think when he says "communities", he's really thinking of ONTD rather than fandom communities that share fanworks and the like, revolving around a common focused interest. This really does explain why they thought that allowing Facebook/Twitter users to comment on entries was something the English-language users wanted, when so many of us were appalled.)

So frankly, now that the communities can move, we should - I can't fault the Russian leadership for wanting to cater the site to the way Russian users want to use it. However, it's very clear that the way non-Cyrillic users used to use the site is the lowest priority for LJ, and they don't care about preserving features that we use and they don't. I can see them removing all kinds of other things that allow for well-moderated and maintained fandom groups and semi-private journals just because the public Russian bloggers don't use them.

After reading that interview I'm even more confused about why they're making these changes. From what he says a large majority of LJ users are from the US, also that the paid accounts of American users are bringing in a fair bit of money. If that's really the case then shouldn't they want to be doing things to make their American users happy? Not the mention the rest of the English-speaking community here. Not everyone who speaks English on the internet is American... But anyway, how does it make sense to piss everyone off the way they have?

Allowing users to register through Facebook, Twitter, and Google+ isn't going to help them to "keep the American audience". They obviously don't understand their customers, and how is any business ever supposed to be successful if they don't cater for what their customers want? You can't always expect that people will want to use something for it's original intended purpose. Especially when you're talking about something like a blogging site.

And they can't say that they've gotten positive feedback about what they're doing with the site. I don't think I've seen a single comment that says the changes are a good thing. From what I've heard most people in the Russian community don't like it either.

I'm really getting fed up with the stupidity and arrogance of the LJ staff. I say the sooner we move to DW the better.

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